What the past tells us about the challenge ahead for Ohio State’s new running back coach: Buckeye Talk podcast (2024)

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The 2024 season is right around the corner as Ohio State enters a pivotal year of the Ryan Day era.

It’s the perfect time to set a tone and discuss what Day has accomplished as head coach, using that to project what the future holds, especially in a season where OSU has clearly pushed all its chips into the middle of the table. In doing so, we at Buckeye Talk will spend the next two weeks breaking down the program position by position looking at its past, present and future under Day.

Up next, Stephen Means and Andrew Gillis discuss running back as Carlos Locklyn takes over as the new position coach.

Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.

Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Stephen Means (00:06.536)

It’s day two of our State of the Program series here at Buckeye Talk. I’m Stephen Means and that’s Andrew Gillis. As we get ready to prepare for House Age 2024 regular season, we’re kind of resetting the program and just taking a look at where things are as Ryan Day enters his sixth season as the Buckeyes head coach. Five years in, we’re looking at this from the past, the present, and the future. We’re breaking it down position by position. We started on Monday with quarterbacks and now it’s day two here on Tuesday.

We’re doing running back to do offense this week and we’re going to do defense next week as we lead up into Big Ten media days about two weeks. Andrew and myself and then it’s the fun. It’s a fun crisis. Can we join us in Indianapolis? He’s finishing up his vacation right now off in Europe. He’s having a good time here. Andrew, our conversation about quarterbacks was complex because it’s quarterbacks, right? Even if we both came to the agreement that the quarterback play has been elite, it’s going to at worst be good borderline. Great.

this year and it’ll be good borderline great at the worst going forward when you look at what the recruiting is and what the future holds. But that takes us now to running backs where I think it’s just complex because it’s complex. It’s a bit of a roller coaster when you’re talking about level of talent and you’re talking about overall production. It starts out hot in 2019 with J .K. Dobbins this third year where that whole season, that whole off season, it was like, hey, we’re challenging you, J .K. Can you be our guy? Can you be our workhorse? You wanted to not have to split carries with anybody? Well, here you go.

Here’s 301 carries for you. Can you handle it? And he handled it up until late in that Clemson game where he had an ankle injury that kind of set him back. But 301 carries for a school record, 2003 yards and 21 touchdowns. It starts out hot. And then immediately you go into question mark mode where he heads off to the NFL as a second round pick. Master Teague returns as the incumbent. You go to be Trey Sermon out of the transfer portal from Oklahoma. They spend the whole entire season kind of going back and forth, being fine.

Maybe average, not necessarily anything great, just kind of okay running backs, right? And then all of a sudden the Big Ten Championship game against Northwestern shows up and Trace Herman turns in the Ezekiel at the next two games. He ends the year with 116 carries for 870 yards and four touchdowns, ends up being a third round pick. And I think so much of why he was a third round pick is because of what he did against Northwestern in the Big Ten Championship game and what he did against Clemson in the Sugar Bowl. And then since then,

Stephen Means (02:30.376)

Even if you had Mayan Williams in the mix, you’ve had Dallin Hayden in the mix, you’ve had Master Teg in the mix, the lead guy has just been trained beyond Henderson, the former five star recruit in 21 recruiting class. He had 183 carries for 1248 yards and 15 touchdowns as a true freshman. So he immediately lives up to the hype. And then obviously the injuries get in the way the next couple of years. So far he comes into this year, his fourth year, with 446 career carries for 2745 yards and 32 touchdowns. What’s his number? 32 touchdowns.

plus another 569 yards receiving on 50 catches and 5 touchdowns, which brings us to what we have this year. And I know we’ll get into that with the present, but.

In the name of we have our questions, Andrew, when you look at 2019 through 2023, would you consider Ohio State’s running back room and the talent that’s coming out in the production we’ve seen on Saturdays? Do you consider that to be championship caliber during that?

Andrew (03:32.43)

Yeah, I would. That was one where I wasn’t quite sure. You know, there’s a lot going into this. One of the things that is really kind of difficult to parse through is the running game is maybe a little bit more dependent on some things that are, you know, out of its control. The running game is a little bit more, you know, dependent on coaching. Like, let’s call it what it is. It’s more dependent on the kind of run plays that you are calling.

Stephen, I will always remember the Notre Dame game that we were at in September where Ohio State ran out at the goal line and it was so predictable what they were going to do. And you were like, hey, they’re going to run it here on third down. And when they don’t get it, they’re going to throw a play action pass. And then they didn’t get it. And you look at me when they’re not getting this either. And the run game was so predictable. And

I think you might’ve said something on that fourth down where they ran that jet sweep to Emeka where it kind of like looked like that might be the game. Like that might be it. And that might, that might’ve cost them. And I understand that’s a, you know, that’s a, a receiver getting the ball, but we just kind of looked at the run game and what are they doing? Like, well, like, like what are they doing? So it’s coaching dependent, it’s offensive line dependent, you know, but I mean, this is, this is a really good running game. You know, you look at JK Dobbins in 2019.

J .K. was a second round pick and Trey was a third round pick and Trevion who was their leading rusher or I guess was their leading rusher too the last three years, you know, Mayan Williams kind of being that that guy to take over when Trevion was hurt. You still got six point four yards of carry out of Mayan like you had of the last five years, you had a second round pick, a third round pick and a guy who’s going to get drafted in like the second round or a guy who’s going to get drafted in the third round. So.

For the last five years, you’re starting running back has been an NFL player and not just an NFL player. We’re not talking like a dude who gets drafted when everybody’s taking their third day NFL draft nap. And it’s the 210th overall pick and there’s your leading rusher. No, no, no. You know, that’s where we’re at. You know, Davin’s six point seven yards a carry in 2019. I know this is a team average, so it takes into account sacks and everything like that.

Andrew (05:56.142)

The number one leading rusher in 2019 in terms of average rush yards per play, Clemson 6 .37. So J .K. Dobbins was out rushing, you know, the number one rushing offense in college football. 2022 Trey Sermon had 7 .5 yards a carry. Buffalo was at 6 .7 yards per carry and that was their average rushing yards per game. That was the leading program in the country. 2021 Trevion Henderson 6 .8 yards a carry.

And then you go to the team averages 5 .84 at Coastal Carolina, right? There’s obviously mitigating factors, you know, running backup running backs are not as effective, quarterbacks take sacks, things that, this, that, and the other. But I use that to show that the last couple of years and, you know, really every year for the last five years, Ohio States had good running backs that have averaged really solid running performances. You had 6 .7 yards of carry, you get 7 .5 yards of carry.

He had 6 .8 yards to carry, he had 6 .4 yards to carry, and that’s from my end. And then you get 5 .9 yards to carry. I mean, the low bar here over the last five years has been 5 .9 yards to carry. And I just think that with the talent in the room, I think it’s been championship quality. I really do. I didn’t expect it to be, but I think that that’s where we’re at with Ohio State’s room, not just because the numbers maybe back that up. You know, you’ve had some really good performances from JK. You’ve had some really good performances.

You know, like Trevion in his first year, I mean Trevion in his first year rushing for, you know, over 1200 yards, 6 .8 yards to carry. That’s really impressive. It’s also the talent in the room. Like I know that J .K. Dobbins was a really good NFL prospect and injuries have kind of messed up his NFL career. But I know that Trey Sermon was a third round NFL prospect in the eyes of the NFL. And I know that Trevion Henderson is a second or third round prospect.

in the eyes of the NFL. So not only are they backing it up on the field to the best of their ability with maybe some mitigating factors, we also understand that these guys are NFL players. So I did not come into this thinking it was going to be NFL quality, but our championship level quality, I should say. But I think we’re there. I think Ohio State’s running back room has been.

Stephen Means (08:16.104)

I think I’d expect it best to spend championship quality, but I think consistency matters when you’re having a championship caliber conversation and they haven’t had consistency since 2019 where it was every week. Because even in 2021, it took a couple of weeks to get the trade beyond Henderson. He wasn’t the starter outright. Once he got the job, he got pretty consistent and then some injuries kind of got in the way late in the season with him in 2021. And obviously in 2022, unfortunately he got hurt. I think it -

was against Toledo. I think it was Toledo where he hurt his foot and it kind of derailed from there. Mya Williams was in and out of the lineup for a lot of his career as an Ohio State football player. And then even this year, the.

The best of Trevion Henderson this year was awesome. The best of Trevion Henderson this year was one of like the six best, six or seven best running backs in the country. But it’s also, you know, some injuries got in the way of that. So that’s why you bring in a Quincy Judkins and we’ll talk about that more when we get to the next segment of this. But I think the lack of consistency is why I would say no, because that does matter with running back rooms, but also to the point you’re making of the starter has been NFL caliber. I mean, we’re living in a world.

You gotta have more than one good running back, right? You can’t just have one, because what happens if that guy goes down and gets injured? J .K. Dobbins gets kind of dinked up against Clemson and the Fiestable, and it drastically changes the way that game goes. Imagine if they had the quench on Judkins of 2019, in 2019, when that happens to J .K. Dobbins. And so you’re not as, it’s not as much of a big deal if J .K. Dobbins gets dinged up in that game as it was because he got dinged up in that game, but...

Again, consistency, man. We haven’t seen it really since 2021 and we haven’t seen it at really a high level. We’re talking you can lean on this guy, give him the ball 30 carries if you need to since J .K. Dobbins walked out of the door. Because even Dre Sermon, I mentioned before, yes, he was a third round pick. But he was a third round pick because he played two crazy games out of his mind.

Stephen Means (10:19.72)

The other 30 games he played in his career didn’t screen Trey Sermon was going to be a first round draft pick. And that I think is where Carlos Loughlin coming in as the new running backs coach, that’s where he needs to kind of raise the standard there and the overall depth of the room and not feel like you’re in a situation where yes, you have an NFL player as a starter, but then the rest of the room is just kind of a bunch of question marks. Yes, Maya Williams was a very good player. He wasn’t drafted. Mike Webber, this is pretty...

Ryan DeRosa of course, but Mike Webber was a very good running back here. Wasn’t a drafted player. Master T had some quality moments as a running back here. He wasn’t drafted. That’s got to matter to me when we’re talking about championship caliber. So for me, it was a no because of that lack of consistency. Some of the high moments though, J .K. Dobbins entire 2019 is a high moment. Trey Sermons late surge in 2020 is a high moment. Trey Villar Henderson’s introduction in 2021 was a high moment, especially that Tulsa game where he broke Archie Griffin’s record for the most rushing yards by a true freshman in one game at Ohio State.

in his late season, 2023, his low, the low moments, Trey Sermon and Master Teague in every game leading up to the Northwestern game where it was just kind of this back and forth of okay football, Trey Vion Henderson’s 2022 cause of injuries and then the recruiting misses, right? That matters in this conversation. You miss out on B. John Robinson. You miss out on Jordan Lyle where he flips. You miss out on Mark Fletcher because he flips. Those recruiting misses have to get pulled into this conversation too. So those are some of the low moments.

But as you look at those last five years, you think it’s championship caliber, I don’t. I think it’s a step below that, which is fine. I just don’t think it’s championship caliber.

Andrew (11:57.038)

Good, not elite basically. Yeah, yeah.

Stephen Means (11:58.856)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s almost like with the quarterbacks, it was a bunch of CJ Stroud, Justin Fields, sprinkling a little bit of Kyle McCord. With the running backs, it’s a bunch of Kyle McCord and sprinkling a little bit of CJ Stroud, Justin Fields. That’s how I view it almost the other way around. What are the past five years tell us about the realistic expectations are for the room in general? So this is not just a 2024 conversation. This is a...

24 and beyond in terms of production, usage, just the look of the room, just overall expectation, what these last first five years have told you about what you should be expecting from the running back room. But then also, I’m gonna throw this word in here as well because it’s gonna get into my point when I answer this question, what’s necessary for Ohio State’s running back room?

Andrew (12:52.91)

necessary.

I think if anything has kind of taught you the last five years, it’s that it doesn’t matter because you have a running back that can just go for 300 and whatever yards against Northwestern. No, I’m kidding. I think I, which by the way, I was, I was going to say, I remember, I remember that game. I was living in Baltimore and I remember I woke, I was, I took a nap in the middle of the day and I woke up.

and I saw it was 10 -3 Northwestern. You know those naps when you wake up and you’re just kind of in a world and I’m like, I woke up and it was like 10 -3 Northwestern or something and I looked at my phone and I was like, what? What’s happening? What? No way. And I remember kind of looking at it and I rolled back over and I kind of just played on my phone for a little while. And then somebody texted me like, yo, Trey Sermin’s going off right now. And I was like, who is doing what? And I checked the stats a little while.

Stephen Means (13:49.928)

How do you think I felt up in the press box watching it happen in real time? I’m like, I remember looking at me. I remember looking at Nathan because both of us were there. Doug didn’t travel that year. And I go, I think this guy’s going to break a record today. He’s like, you think? I’m like, yeah, I think, like sarcastically. But then it’s like, I think he’s going to break all the records today.

Andrew (13:51.918)

Probably the same that I did, where you wake up from a nap.

Andrew (14:06.862)

Yes.

Andrew (14:12.078)

Yeah, I mean, your thought was probably saying that I was where you just woke up from like, you know, like you wake up from a nap and like can tell what like you have no idea what year it is. That’s kind of what I felt like when I was looking at when I was looking at some of those stats. But, you know, I think over the last five years, something that I have that has kind of been taught is that you need a bell cow, I think.

You need, whether it’s Batman and Robin, whether it’s, you know, you have, I guess even like two Robins. I’m taking the Batman and Robin over two Robins or three Robins or whatever you want to call it. Like I’m, you need a guy that you can say the game is on the line. We’re turning the game over to you. You had that with J .K. Dobbins. You had that a little bit last year with, with Trevon Henderson.

You know, like you mentioned the year like 2020 and you know, that was not ideal. 2022, I understand Trevion was hurt, but like you have Mayan Williams there like you, but you want a guy that when they go and get stuff, the tough get going to quote a philosopher from the movie Animal House. You need a guy who when the game is on the line, you can turn around and say, you know what? We’re going to hand this man the football.

and he’s gonna go get it done. And you need that guy. So, you know, I’m not sure with Ohio State’s running back room, if you can really get through a year with a...

with two, here I’ll put it like that, with two Dallin Haydens. I don’t think you can, I think you can like Dallin Haydens as a running back and be like, hey, look, we got like two Dallin Haydens and a James Peoples going into this year. Like I think we can, that’s not good enough. You can, they just happen to have two running backs that I think in a lot of these past years, maybe with the exception of like, you know, J .K. Dobbins, 2019, I think you have two running backs that could easily kind of handle that bell cow role in Quinchon and Trevion, but.

Andrew (16:22.382)

I look at this and say you need one of those guys a year. You know, you need someone to say, this is our guy. This is the guy that we are going to hand the ball to when we’re up by seven late in the game over Michigan, over Oregon, over Notre Dame, over Penn State, over whoever. You need somebody like that. So I think that that’s kind of the thing that I looked at, you know, just kind of like looking through the years.

I understand that like the running back position is being devalued, but even, you know, especially in college football, I think even more, you need a true number one. You need a guy that you can just turn around and, you know, he’s your number one and you feel great about that. And then you can supplement maybe talent around that. But I just don’t like the idea of saying, well, we’ve got four different backs and they all do.

one specific thing. One guy’s a pass blocker, one guy’s a pass catcher, one guy runs between the tackles, and one guy’s a home run hitter. I just don’t like that concept. I think that you need a true workhorse in this backfield. I think that that’s probably the number one lesson that I took from kind of looking at these last five years.

Stephen Means (17:32.344)

I think you need more than one Batman. I think you need two. That’s what I took from all this. I think you... Yeah, in this recruiting world, definitely.

Andrew (17:36.11)

Interesting. Is that realistic?

Cause we can talk about this with the 2024 team and then the future teams, but like, you’re not like, I hear what you’re saying. I don’t think it’s realistic to have Trevion and Quinchon every year. I think it’s maybe a little bit more realistic to have.

Stephen Means (17:57.608)

Why not?

Andrew (18:00.174)

Why not? Because like they’re both going to be like top 50 picks. And do you think every year you’re going to have a top 50 pick? I don’t think that that’s realistic.

Stephen Means (18:04.584)

So.

See, OK, Georgia has made has done this for a decade where they’ve just churned out elite running back after elite running back after elite running back after elite running back after elite running back Alabama elite running back after elite running back after elite running back after elite running back. Why can’t Ohio State recruits like those two teams? Why can’t they recruit guys like that? That’s what they saw Trevion Henderson and Evan Pryor on. Unfortunately, Evan Pryor had injuries that got in the way of his development here, so he never got to turn into a guy who was a top.

I don’t think this is crazy. Now, is every year both of those guys gonna be amongst the top five running backs in the country? I’m not saying that, no. But should Ohio State have two top 15s, two top 25 running backs? Yeah, I don’t think that’s crazy at all. I think that should be the standard. And I’ll tell you why.

Andrew (18:42.734)

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying, yeah.

Stephen Means (18:57.32)

I don’t think my Williams was ever one of the 20 best running backs in college football. I don’t think that I think he was a very quality back who very much outplayed the expectation he got to Ohio State with. I think that’s fine. But also he didn’t get drafted. So that’s that I’m not saying that to be mean. I’m just saying there is the NFL told us how good they thought mine Williams was just like the NFL told us how good see they struggle was and all encased over and everybody else on this list, right?

I think the best game in terms of what a running back duo at Ohio State could look like under Ryan Day was Wisconsin in 2022. And first of all, that was one of the best offensive performances I’ve seen from Ohio State in terms of like complete game. Like everything was going. CJ Stroud was throwing the ball all over the place. The running game was going. The receivers looked great. Everything looked good offensively. Trevion Henderson in that 52 to 21 went over Wisconsin. A night game. They wore the black jerseys. It was awesome.

Trevion Henderson, 21 carries for 121 yards. Mayan Williams, 11 carries for 101 yards and two touchdowns. Like I’m not saying that has to be that, that’s like perfect though. That is perfect case scenario where you have two guys where you just got done dealing with Trevion Henderson and now I just brought in Mayan Williams and now you gotta deal with that. That’s what this year is gonna be. you just got done dealing with Trevion Henderson and what’s your reward?

You get to deal with Quincyon Judkins. Quincyon Judkins, you just got done dealing with him? now you got to deal with Trayvon Henderson. I think that should be every year for Ohio State, where you’ve got two Batmans, two guys, where either one of those guys, if you give him the ball 20 times, he can turn it into 120 plus yards. Or if you give it to him 11 yards and he’s just hot and cooking and gets the right holes, he takes 11 carries and turns it into a 101 yards. I don’t think that’s unrealistic.

for Ohio State, for the way they recruit the position, for the way that Carlos Loughlin has very quickly started talking about things, that should be the expectation. And I think that’s a more realistic thing in this world where 16 or 17 games is how you have to win a national title. I think that’s more attainable than trying to ask J .K. Dobbins to carry it. He carried it out 300 times in 14 games.

Stephen Means (21:16.104)

If that was this year, you ought to add another two games on top of that, at least. And maybe three games, depending on how the season would have played out, but for sure two games. So that’s 16 games. So you’re asking J .K. Dobbins to carry it for you 350 times. I don’t know if that’s a realistic thing to ask a guy to do every year. Now, when you get a guy who can do that, of course, you roll with that. But...

You gotta get these running backs through the season. And how do you do that? You got two awesome dudes back there. So I understand what you’re saying. You gotta have a workhorse. I don’t agree with that. I think you gotta have two dudes who can be a workhorse for you, who are upside top 20 running backs in the country and you just roll them. And now you got both of these guys. And now the question is, can you find guys who will sign up for that? Because Georgia has, Alabama has, and Ohio State has now found two guys who have signed up for, I gotta play 16 games.

Do I want to carry the ball 350 times? Or do I want to carry it 205 times? An average 7 yards of carry.

Andrew (22:18.958)

I suppose. I’m trying to think, like I’m thinking about the math there. I just, I just, again, I go back to the realistic point. I just, I’m not saying you have to have Tregon and Quinchan every year.

Stephen Means (22:31.944)

Do you not think Ohio State can recruit the running back position at that level?

Andrew (22:35.414)

we’ll get that. We’ll get to how I think that they could recruit the running back position, but

Stephen Means (22:38.024)

Okay.

Andrew (22:41.774)

I mean, I think you were more correct the longer that you talked because you were like, what’d you say? Two top 15 running backs. Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah. I’m not saying that they’re going to have two top five running backs every year. That, that is not what we’re talking about. You’re not going to have trade. And that’s what I meant by you’re not going to have Trevion and Quinch on every year. You know, like we looked at Georgia. Yeah. We looked at Georgia as we, as we talked about, you know, the quarterback situation last year or last

Stephen Means (22:51.207)

Yeah, this isn’t like, but like...

Stephen Means (23:01.064)

No, but the number 19 running back in the country is a Batman to me.

Andrew (23:11.758)

pod and you know one of the things I brought up was that when they had James Cook and Zemeir White like one was a second round pick and one was a fourth round pick and James Cook was clearly the better running back on that team even though Zemeir White was very good and I think that that is maybe where you’re at where it’s like you have two NFL players in your backfield you know they might not obviously go pro that year you might have a sophom*ore or freshman that’s really good or even a junior like Trevion who stays behind but I think you can

I think you can lay this out and say, you know what, you have enough talent back there, but you still have a guy that is your number one. I would still want a guy that’s my number one, rather than, you know, two fourth round pick. I guess the question would be, would you rather, I’m trying to work through this in my head as I’m talking this out. It’s like, would you rather have like,

a top 50 running back and then a fifth round running back or like two fourth round running backs on your team. And I’m taking the second round running back and the fifth round running back over two fourth round running backs every day.

Stephen Means (24:24.552)

I don’t use the draft as an indicator because NFL in terms of that qualification of do I want the top 50 running back or do I want the second and the fourth just that to that extent just because the running back position is so devalued in the NFL at this point right like I don’t know like there might only be one running back taken in the second round some years right there might only be one running back who’s a top 100 pick but you got so

Just getting drafted, I think, as a running back has some value in a way that it other, like if you just getting drafted as a quarterback, that’s not the same. If you’re just getting drafted as a wide receiver, that’s not the same as just getting drafted as a running back. But I just think you gotta have two dudes, man. You gotta have two dudes. And, but even what you’re talking about, the NFL part of this, that would be a step up from what Ohio State has been. This is the first year in...

I can’t even remember the last time Ohio State had two guys on its roster that were future NFL draft picks. And that’s what Ohio State has right now. And that should not be, wow, congratulations, Ohio State. Look what you did. You did it. That’s floor at Ohio State when you recruit this way. It shouldn’t be.

One guy is a day two for sure draft pick and then you’re not even sure if the other guys in your roster are gonna get drafted right now, man. I think right now they’ve got two and then they’ve got two freshmen who are, we’ll see, right? They’re true freshmen. So you don’t wanna put any expectations on two freshmen who aren’t Jeremiah Smith, of course. And we’ll get to Jeremiah Smith on Wednesday when we’re talking about wide receivers. But I just think this year should be the standard. This should be the norm. Two guys on your team who you know are going to get drafted, but also you know,

that either one of those guys you can ride if you need to ride one of them, but also just this depth. It’s a conversation. For me, this is a, you should have depth, quality depth, NFL draft level depth. And they have not had that.

Stephen Means (26:23.08)

They’ve had really good number ones and then a bunch of question marks at number two. And it seems like they’re ready to get to a place where their number one and number two are more like a one A and one B in 2024. Let’s take a quick break there. We’re not gonna go as long. Well, we actually did go long. We went 30 minutes talking about the past. So we are gonna go that long. We’re gonna take a quick break and we’re gonna transition into what I’m talking about and what 2024 is. But it’s also a situation of there’s two categories.

within this 2024 running back room and how we’re gonna talk about guys and we’ll reveal what that is when we come back from the break here on Buckeye Talk.

Get the text 614 -350 -3315. We got some awesome textures, man. There are people, we’re recording this on Monday afternoon. This is your Tuesday pod. So while we’re recording this pod, people are listening to the quarterback state of the program pod that we did for Monday. And it’s been fun watching people in real time get to certain moments in the pod. It’s always one of my favorite things that our textures do when they’re listening. You can see them listening live, because they’ll go.

They’ll ask a question or they’ll make a statement and then they’ll go, wait, you’re talking about that now or wait, what was he talking about? he’s doubling down. It’s awesome to see two week free trial, 399 after that all news, all analysis, anything you would possibly want. Ohio State football, 614 -350 -3315. We’re talking running backs. We’re talking the past, we’re talking the present, we’re talking the future. Under Ryan Day, the past was 2019 through 2023. And now the present is obviously 2024, where the room is Trevion Henderson, Ole Miss transfer, Quincyon Judkins, top 150 recruit,

people’s and an in -state tar and an in -state signee Sam Williams Dixon and then TC Caffey the walk one who I think might end up on scholarship this year I’m not 100 % sure on that so don’t you know don’t quote me on that but I won’t be shocked if he’s on scholarship this year because they’re under on actual scholarship players so if they wanted to give some walk on some scholarships they could do that this year and I feel like TC Caffey might be a prime candidate for that this year that’s the room we asked a question about the past you said yes I said kinda

Andrew (28:03.502)

Yeah, we’re going to have to figure that out, I think, at Big Ten Media Day.

Stephen Means (28:22.952)

Is the room in 2024 championship caliber, but then also does it have to be if Ohio State is going to win a national championship?

Andrew (28:33.806)

Yes, the room is national championship caliber. that’s pretty basic, right? Like, this is one of the easiest questions that we’re going to answer the whole time that we’re doing this, this little series here. yes, the running back, the running back room is national championship caliber. I don’t think I need to expand on that. You have Trevan Henderson who has been really good for you over the last couple of years. You know, I know he’s had some injury problems.

You bring in a two -time thousand euro grocer from the SEC. You’re chilling. You’re straight. You’re good. Don’t worry about it. So I’m not going to expand any further. Does it need to be? No, it does not need to be. But like I think with all of these things, you know, you can’t be awful, but I think that this might be the one where even if Ohio State’s not very good, I think you can...

find workarounds to this, right? I don’t think it needs to be national championship caliber running backs because again, this is very difficult sometimes because so much of this depends on everything else. It depends on coaching. It depends on how your quarterback is playing. You know, if Ohio State has CJ Stroud, a quarterback, and you’ve got the mon stars at receiver, all of a sudden running the ball gets magically easier. Funny how that works, right? You know, if you have a run grading offensive line,

hey, it gets magically easier to run the ball. Funny how that works. And that has nothing to do with the running backs or, you know, hey, if Chip Kelly comes in and all of a sudden the running backs, you know, are running, you know, a little bit more of an advanced scheme or the scheme fits in better or whatever, you know, things turn out better. Funny how that works. So it doesn’t have to be because I think that there are other variables that you can make up to maybe make up for a deficiency in the running back room. And what I mean by that is kind of what I just said. Like if Ohio State keeps up with

the way that it has been recruiting quarterbacks and receivers and you’re able to throw the ball a lot. I think that the running backs can be, you know, maybe a step below that or even like two or three steps below that and it’s not going to kill you. Or if you have an offensive line that is, and so many people maybe are laughing at this pod right now or maybe angry at this pod right now because I just said that that was a possibility and they’re saying it’s never been a possibility. you know, like, but if you can get back to that point where you have like,

Stephen Means (30:42.568)

Right.

Andrew (30:58.638)

Paris Johnson, Luke Whippler, DeJuan Jones on your offensive line and you got that level of talent up there, then it doesn’t need to be national championship quality in the backfield because the running game is gonna look better, right? You’re gonna make whoever’s back in the backfield look better. You could have a guy who’s not an NFL player, a guy who’s not all Big Ten quality or something like that, and he’s gonna look better behind a certain scheme.

Stephen Means (31:01.516)

Right.

Andrew (31:26.286)

than maybe the 2023 offensive line, for example. So I don’t think it needs to be national championship caliber. And I think that this was maybe the position on this team or one of the few positions on this team where I look at and say, I don’t think it needs to be national championship caliber. I don’t even know if it needs to be great or very good. I think it can just be mediocre. And I think you can be fine.

Stephen Means (31:51.336)

History does not agree with you at all. Ohio State’s last two national championships were won because they had elite championship caliber running backs. And their names were Ezekiel Elliott and Maurice Corret.

Andrew (32:00.366)

Yeah, but I’m not gonna, are we gonna count, like I understand counting Zeke, but are we gonna count Maurice Claret? Cause that game was played in 2003. Like that game was played over 20 years ago. Football is very, very different at that time. Because like they’re, with all due respect to Craig Krenzel, like Ohio State was not the throwing machine that they were in 2023 and in previous years. I just, are we gonna compare that?

Stephen Means (32:20.52)

Are we gonna, would you just say we’re gonna count a guy who won a national championship? Yes!

Andrew (32:25.166)

Yeah, but football is so different. That’s my point. Like you needed a running back back then. I don’t think you need one today.

Stephen Means (32:28.168)

I don’t care! You don’t discount people who win national championships. You don’t discount people who win national championships, ever. That’s the whole point we’re doing here. Ohio State’s won two in 25 years. Yes, we’re gonna count him. Every single time. Get the text, 614 -350 -3315. You can yell it in. Yes! Yes! Yes! Without him... That has nothing to do with him stripping Sean Taylor and Nicky Sherwood. I’m staying out of the...

Andrew (32:47.31)

Why are you booing me? I’m right. Football is different. Football is way different than it was in 2003.

No, but yeah, but I don’t think it’s, yeah.

Stephen Means (32:57.64)

We’re not going down that road. Here’s the point. The point is, no, that’s... Here’s the real point I want to make here. Yes, we are going to count Murray’s correct. Yes, every single time. Yes, every time. The real point I want to make here is yes, it’s championship caliber. Does it have to be yes? And it comes with an asterisk because it’s not always dependent on just a running back situation.

To your point of if you have elite receivers that can make the game running game easier, ask 2021 how much easier their run game was when they had three first round receivers and they still couldn’t run the ball well.

Stephen Means (33:30.6)

Travion Henderson and Quinchon Judkins can be really good this year. But if the offensive line is a dud, it doesn’t matter. Now, I don’t think the offensive line is going to be a dud, and I’ll save that for when we get to the offensive line later this week. But I think they need, it’s, running back’s the position that probably needs the most help in terms of being able to maximize what it is. It can be championship caliber, but it doesn’t matter if some of the other groups aren’t at least quality in those situations. And so it is.

It’s a hard one to answer, but I do think yes and yes, simply because I think this year might run a little similar, similar to 2019 in terms of what the offense is and where the engine is. Where in 2019, J .K. Dobbins was just the engine. And then you would take the top off the defense with Justin Fields in his arm and those receivers. I think it’s going to be a similar thing this year, except J .K. Dobbins, you just split him into two people with Trayvion Henderson and Quinchon Judkins being the engine behind this offense. And then when teams try to load the box on you, that’s when you hit

deep that’s when you get a mecha buka involved that’s when you get Jeremiah Smith and carnell tate and Brandon innocent ball maybe jaden ballard’s a part of that conversation as well maybe g scott’s part of that conversation as well titan and whatever is going on in that situation and we’ll get to that later this week as well but i think

I think they’re, Ryan Day keeps talking about they’re going to lean on a run game this year. And I know the quarterbacks are going to be part of that and they’re going to run the ball with the quarterbacks as well. But that starts with Trevion Henderson and Quinchon Judkins. And so in a controlled environment where I think the offensive line is at least going to be.

decent enough that Ohio State can execute what it needs to execute. You have these two guys who are turning three yard gains in the five yard gains and six yard gains in the eight yard gains and then hitting home runs every so often. I think that’s going to be Ohio State’s formula to winning a national championship is what we saw in 2019. Run game, elite defense, taking the top off the defense with some downfield threats at wide receiver as well. But it’s less about

Stephen Means (35:30.632)

Asking a quarterback to throw at 35 times like you did with CJ Stroud and more 18 to 25 times with a lot of run game a lot of putting teams away that way and so that’s why it’s a yes and yes for me, but it’s also acknowledging that This is not Barry Sanders where his offensive line is terrible and he goes backwards seven yards But still ends up gaining 20 yards on the play. That’s not what I’m saying. It’s I understand. It’s not

it’s codependent on other spots but i still think it’s going to be championship caliber

Best case scenario for Ohio State’s run game this year is as two 1 ‚000 yard rushers and it’s so dominant that again bringing up 2019, Master Teague was third team all big 10 because he got so many snaps, so many carries and garbage time that he had like 700 yards in 2019 as a second string guy who was closer to third string than he was first string in the hierarchy just because of how they used J .K. Dobbins. I think that’s best case scenario because one, it shows you how dominant Quinchon and Tre are, but also it helps set up your

future if you’re walking into the spring of 2025 feeling like James Peeples and Sam Williams -Dixon and TC Caffey just got so much experience that you’re not worried about whether they’re going to be ready for it in 2025 or not. While the worst case scenario, Andrew, and you can disagree with these, of course, Trevion Henderson can’t stay healthy. He misses some key games and Quinchon Judkins, after spending two years at Ole Miss with getting 250 plus carries, he just kind of wears out.

having to do that for a third year. Cause that’s a lot. That’s a lot on one kid’s body. He wears out and then the freshmen are just not ready. You’re in a situation where similar to Maryland, 2022 and Dallin Hayden has to play and Dallin Hayden handled it well. What if James Peeples isn’t ready for it? Now again, extremes, best and worst case scenario. And it’s probably somewhere within, but I at least think just based on how the season looks, what the schedule is like, the best case scenario feels more realistic than the worst case scenario.

Andrew (37:30.67)

Yeah, the best case scenario is that, like you said, you have, you know, 2000 yard rushers. You know, you’re in a, you’re in a year where you have, I know you said you don’t necessarily want to use the NFL as the board, but like you have two players that are going to go top 50, you know, two players are going to go top 40, maybe even, you know, you like really like it’s a really good running back year for, for the NFL. And, and, you know, the best case scenario is that, you know, you have the number

two and number three running back off the board, the number one and number four, the number one and number two. Like that’s the best case scenario that right that you’ve got elite running backs that are, you know, not just great in college, but they are very clearly proving that they are NFL quality now. Like they can like that they could play in the NFL today. And I think that that’s the best case scenario for Ohio State, because then, you know, if you have those like 2000 yard rushers like we’re talking about, then you’re in a situation where

man, you’re going to play some teams and you’re going to tell Trevion, put your feet up and you’re going to tell, you know, Quinch on dude, relax, you know, eat some popcorn, go get a hot dog, wave to your parents in the stands because we’re going to beat the snot out of Michigan state and you don’t got to worry about it. And, and there’s going to be situations like that. So that’s the best case scenario that it, that it works kind of as we’ve been thinking it’ll work where you’ve got two really good running backs and you just can kind of move them in and out as you.

That’s the best case scenario. And this is one of the best running backs in college, one of the best running tandems in college football, not the best running tandem in college football. The worst case scenario I struggle with, because I think you’re right. I normally don’t like saying injury, because like, I mean, obviously, like if we’re, I mean, if we’re talking about receiver, hey, what’s the worst case scenario receiver? Mecca gets hurt again. And, you know, you know, Jeremiah Smith can’t pick up the offense or something. I don’t know, whatever you want to say.

You know, injuries I’m not really a fan of because, yeah, everybody can get hurt and then, all right, what are we doing? You know, we could do this with the offensive line where you’re like, all right, you have two season ending injuries and then you’re like, all right, well, where are we? But with Trevion, it’s kind of a thing. Like Trevion was hurt in 2022 and then got hurt in 2023. And I know in 2023 they held him out for a little bit.

Andrew (39:57.294)

maybe extra than they would have just because the schedule was a little bit lighter and they wanted him down the road, they wanted him for that stretch run. But this is a thing, right? That Trevion has got to prove that he can stay healthy. So I agree with that in that respect. I think though the worst case realistic scenario is something in that ballpark of Trevion...

can’t really stay fully healthy and Quin -Shawn can’t get you that elite level performance when Trevion’s out of the lineup or you know when like you said with Quin -Shawn maybe he breaks down and you just you don’t get the peak and I think that that might be the realistic worst -case scenario because it’s really hard to look at Trevion and Quin -Shawn and say that like you know things are gonna go horribly wrong here so

I just...

I really think that the worst realistic scenario here is that you just are, you look at the running backs at the end of the year and you’re left wanting more because the, you just didn’t get that elite level play that you were kind of hoping for and maybe even banking on. And I think that that’s probably the realistic scenario. Cause again, like I, we’re not going to regress to a point where

You know, we’re talking about Trevion Henderson and Quinchon Judkins as like, you know, hey, these guys need to see the bench. Like these guys are really good running backs. So I just like sans injury, which I guess you could say is worst case scenario. And I did kind of bake that in. I just, I think the worst case scenario is the end of the year comes and the running game is not something that you can qualify as a.

Stephen Means (41:55.112)

And I don’t think that’s in their control because again, that’s another any worst case scenario. I don’t necessarily think is in trade beyond and clinch on control because if they’re on the field, they’re a problem for another team to have to worry about. It’s the things that are uncontrollable. What’s again is an offensive line discussion we’ll have later this week or a health discussion, which I think I don’t you don’t ever wish health problems or a kid ever. And I’m not doing that here. It’s just we’ve seen it. And so you got it’s something to keep an eye on.

I don’t think there’s a biggest challenger to Ohio State and what they have in the running back game. Honestly, I think Penn State, if Nicholas Singleton and Kate Ron Allen had had a better year last year are probably the best case of that. But no one else has two guys like this. Michigan, obviously, Blake Corum’s off to the NFL. So you’ve just got Donovan Edwards and some and question marks. Right. And it’s fine. Question marks. He’s just got young guys who haven’t proven anything. Oregon. I don’t know if they’re.

Andrew (42:42.67)

Yeah, it’s on what ever it’s in who, right? Exactly.

Stephen Means (42:51.752)

Running back talent is a strength. I just think their run game is a strength if that makes it You know, it’s not the same thing, right? Having a good run game and having an elite running back are not hand -in -hand sometimes and I just think Oregon strength is its offensive line more than it is their running back situation while I think right now Ohio State’s the opposite of that with a strength is the running backs and you have questions about what their offensive line is so I don’t think right now where I stand there’s any real contender and it’s because again

They have two of the five best running backs in college football this year, so that’s just what it is. Okay, what’s a question you have about the room that isn’t something obvious and in your face?

Andrew (43:34.126)

You know, again, this is one of those things where we’ve talked about it so much where I’m like, man, I don’t know. You know, I think we’ve discussed the one -two punch. We’ve discussed the dynamics of it. I just... The thing that I can’t get out of my head is I think a lot of people and maybe myself included are looking at this running back room going...

Hey.

What if they get real funky with it? And what if they have two backs in the backfield? And what if Chip Kelly’s doing all of this, you know, kind of crazy mad scientist type stuff and wow, this is unbelievable. And look at all the formations that Ohio State has in its back pocket now. And I think people may be letting their imaginations run wild and as you should when you have two running backs like that. But the question that I have is

Do they have these two running backs just to kind of say, we have a national championship caliber running back either way. You know, if we get down to the, you know, it’s impossible to get to, it’s like, it’s damn near impossible to have three on your roster like that. So I wonder if Ohio State is looking at it going, you know what, we’re not going to do anything crazy like that. Maybe we rotate a little bit more, but.

If Travion’s cooking, Travion’s in the game and you know, Quinchon’s just gonna sit out. Quinchon’s just gonna sit on the bench. And I wonder if that’s where we’re at with Ohio State. With their running game where they’re not looking at it going, you know, we’re gonna run full house backfields and all of a sudden there’s gonna be all this kind of crazy motion and all this kind of crazy formations and we’re gonna run the T formation, right? Like they’re not gonna do what they did the first play of the spring game where...

Andrew (45:34.158)

You know, they paid homage to Woody Hayes and they’re not going to do that type stuff. But I just, I wonder if that’s something that they’re, I wonder if they’re looking at it a little bit more, you know, down to earth than some people are, because I think we have talked on this pod a lot about, Hey, if you have two backs in the backfield, that’s really interesting. And that’s a really great formation. And that’s something that’s really cool. And that’s a way to open up the offense and think about all the things that you can do.

We’ve kind of gone madden brain with this. I guess, I guess we soon we could say NCAA football brain. You know, we’ve kind of led, you know, ourselves talk our, you know, we’ve kind of let ourselves talk ourselves into, you know, all the different things that they can do. And I’m just, I’m curious if as we discuss the running back room, nothing really fundamentally changes about the way the running backs are utilized. It’s just.

you’ve got two now that you can rotate in. And I’m curious if that is where Ohio State’s looking at it, not we can get crazy with it.

Stephen Means (46:39.336)

Jim Kelly’s our offensive coordinator, they can get crazy with it. How many times are Quinchon Judkins and Trayvon Henderson on the field together? That’s question number one for me. How often do they do it? And is it something they’re doing and showing things to teams so teams have things to worry about or are they gonna do it against Oregon? I almost don’t care how many times they do it the first three weeks of the season because they can do whatever they want the first three weeks of the season. Akron’s not gonna be able to stop it.

How many times do we see it against Oregon? How many times do we see it against Penn State? How many times do we see it against Iowa? How many times do we see it against Michigan? How many times do we see it in a college football playoff game? I think that’s where it gets interesting to me, if that’s a wrinkle there. We’ve seen Chip Kelly do it in the past. The other one is just about the running back three situation. I kind of hinted at it earlier. The fact that Ohio State in 2019, their schedule was so set up in a way where they were so dominant that Master T was third team all big 10 that year. It’s because he got 135 carries for 789 yards.

that year as like a clear number two where there was a significant gap in between number one and number two in that year. He had two less carries than Justin Fields had 137 that year and 300 more yards than Justin Fields. Who’s running back three? Is it clearly James Peoples? Does Sam Williams Dixon have a great summer and maybe he surprises us? Is it TC Caffey? Who would flash some things before he got hurt? So maybe it’s him.

And how many carries do they have? I don’t think RB3 has 100 carries this year. I don’t think so, but also 16 games, man, who knows? But does RB3 have 350 yards? Does RB3 have 400 yards? Just because again, Master T got that because of what the schedule was.

that year and because he had so many second halves where jk Dobbins was sitting on the sideline which makes the 301 carries even more impressive the bulk of that came in penn state michigan clemson a big 10 championship game right in those four games not necessarily the games before that

Andrew (48:34.83)

Give me a great market down Monday question by the way. Over under RB3 yards. Yeah.

Stephen Means (48:40.036)

it’s on the list. Trust me. We’re going to get to that. It’s on the list of things. How many carries do they get and how many yards do they get? And some of that is their own production, how much they’re used. But then also how many games get in a way where you’re telling J .K. Dobbins and Quincy John Jenkins, go, yo, go have a seat. We’ll see you next week. And you’re letting James Peoples or you’re letting Sam Williams Dixon or you’re letting C .C. Caffey Cook. So those are the two main questions I have, because I think I already know.

Andrew (48:45.902)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (49:05.672)

what it’s going to be with Travion Henderson and Quinchon Judkins. They’re both going to play and they’re going to look pretty good as long as they’re on the field and as long as they’re healthy. That’s the room. Travion Henderson, Quinchon Judkins, James People, Sam Williams -Dixon and TC Caffey. And now we get back to the question marks when we come back from the break here, which I think we can include those two guys in that conversation of the future because they’re more of a conversation about the future than they are right now. We’ll get into that when we come back from the break here on Buckeye Talk.

Stephen Means (49:38.087)

So a quick conversation about the present because it’s just known. We know what it is. It’s Trevion Henderson and Quinchon Judkins are one A and one B in whatever order you want to put them in. As Ohio State’s running backs, the past has had some high moments and it’s had some question mark moments. And I think, Andrew, the future is a one big question mark in every way possible, right? Everything’s new.

Andrew (49:47.342)

They’re quite good.

Stephen Means (50:02.376)

Tony offered leaves from Michigan a week in the spring practice. And so now you bring in Carlos Loughlin from Oregon and he talks it man, right? He said a lot of good things. I think the first time we talked with him, he said everything you would want to hear if you were a fan, right? About his expectations for developing running backs, for recruiting running backs, you know, the high level play he wants to be at, the types of guys he wants to identify, all the right things. He talked the talk and now...

He’s gonna very quickly have to walk the walk. And I don’t know how much walking you’re gonna have to do with Trey and Quinchon, because they are what they are. Though there’s probably things they need to get better at. They’re not perfect players. No one’s a perfect player. I’m not a perfect journalist. You’re not a perfect journalist. No one’s perfect. But the real question marks about him are James Peoples, Sam Williams -Dixon,

And then that 2025 class right now where you’ve already got Bo Jackson, the number 79 player, number four running back, and then Isaiah West, number five, 32 player, number 45 running back. And then whether or not you’re going to go try to find a third running back recruit, or you’re going to hit the portal because that’s kind of the world we’re living in right now. So let’s start with James Peoples and Sam Williams -Dixon. Let’s combine them because they’re both two freshmen. What do you want to see from them this year?

that makes you feel confident that if these are the top two next year, Ohio State’s running back room will at bare minimum be good, even if it’s not necessarily championship caliber yet.

Andrew (51:36.046)

I think with, I understand why you would combine them. I’m not though, because I think James Peoples and Sam Williams -Dixon have such different backgrounds. Like James Peoples is a top 100 recruit out of Texas and Sam Williams -Dixon is a three star running back that’s kind of a local guy that they’re not quite sure yet is going to stick at running back, right? Like when they recruited him, they were like, we’re going to start him at running back and then we’ll see.

So I don’t know if those guys can go in the same bucket. I, you know, I look at James Peeples and what I want to see from James Peeples is can you be the third running back on this team that can prove to me for 2025? No, this team does not need to go find another Quinshawn and start, you know, making some calls and start trying to figure out like, Hey, we need another guy like Quinshawn. You know, of course you’re going to want to be like Quinshawn, but you know, can they avoid that? Right? Like can.

Can James Peeples avoid maybe a little bit of the nerves and anxiety that is probably going to be paired with the running back room after Trevion and Quinchon leave, right? Is James Peeples good enough to squash that like a bug? We’re going to find out. I think running back is maybe one of those positions where you could come in and play immediately and it’s not much of a learning curve. We mentioned offensive line a lot. Quarterback is like this.

Defensive line is like this where it just it takes a little bit sometimes and for for yourself to play as a freshman You have to be a very rare kind of athlete a very rare type of person to do that And running back I think you might be able to manage that a little bit better because it’s a little bit more protected But you and I saw James Steven I think we both kind of looked at him and went wow like that guy looks like a college running back You know there were there were players that you look at and you say wow, you know this guy You know needs a year. He needs a year in the weight room or maybe just even a summer in the weight room or whatever

With James, one of the things that I was kind of struck by was his lower body strength and how big he looked. If you would have told me that he was a second or third year player, I wouldn’t have batted an eye. So that’s what I need to see from James Peeples is can you be that guy? Can you be that number one running back type or prove that you have the arcs to be that number one running back type? Because 2025 is gonna be here sooner than people think.

Andrew (53:53.262)

And for as much as we talk about how good this running back room is going to be now, Ohio State’s like six months away from not having Terman Henderson and maybe not having Quinshaw Judkins anymore. And you might be turning over the new leaf to the James people. So I got to see that. Sam Williams -Dixon, I think it’s more of what the coaches need to see and what needs to happen behind closed doors that we are not really going to get to take a look at. Is Sam Williams -Dixon good enough to play running back?

at the college level and good enough to play, you know, behind James Peeples is Sam Williams Dixon, the guy that you feel comfortable with as someone that can grow into a role like that. I don’t know. And that is running back his best position. I don’t know. That’s something only coaches are going to have to answer because I don’t think we’re going to get to see Sam Williams Dixon play a whole heck of a lot of football. You know, in this year, I think, you know, we’re going to get obviously the limited practices in the fall or I guess in August and.

And then I don’t know how much he’s going to play all year. I don’t, I mean, maybe you see him a little bit against like an Akron or a Marshall or something like that, but you know, maybe Northwestern later in the year, if things kind of start to click a little bit, you know, if things are kind of getting out of hand, but I, I just don’t know what we can see with our own eyes that Sam Williams Dixon can prove. I think it’s more of a coaching staff conversation. So, you know,

I don’t think it’s an unreasonable question for Ohio State’s running back group moving forward that maybe you need four. Like maybe you need, you know, like what if Sam Williams Dixon, they’re like, you know what? This guy is not a true running back. We can utilize him more as a scat back. You know, you think of like a, like a, like how the Lions used like Theo Riddick back in the day, you know, right? Or like a Chris Thompson got used in the NFL, right?

or I’m trying to think of other examples, maybe like a Curtis Samuel, you know, a guy that kind of plays that hybrid kind of position where you’re moving him around a lot, you can get creative with him in your offense. And that’s a great thing to have, but you wonder like, okay, maybe you do need three freshmen and then a transfer to kind of make this room work, you know, quantity wise. So I think with Sam, it’s kind of, can you prove that you belong? And with James, it’s, can you prove that you can be the guy?

Stephen Means (56:21.608)

I think what changed people is I want to see a guy where it’s, he’s progressing in a way that the only reason he’s not playing this year is because you have two of the five best running backs in college football.

And I think that’s okay if you’re not playing as a true freshman because that’s why you’re not playing. It’s almost similar to like, and it’s not, he’d be on the field right now being the best running back in the Big Ten. It’s just he is good enough to play at Ohio State right now. It’s just the two best running backs in college football play at Ohio State. So that’s why he’s not playing right now. Very similar to like.

Not Jackson Smith and Jigbe. Maybe like Julian Fleming in 2020, right? Where Julian Fleming, he’s not a first round draft picky, but he’s a really good football player. He flashed some things in 2020 in that Big Ten Championship game, but he wasn’t going to play because you had Garrett Wilson and Chris Olave and Jameson Williams and Jackson Smith make Jigbe out of him, and that’s fine. I think you’re right about Sam Williams -Dixon. I think that that’s very much a more long -term conversation. So let’s bring Bo Jackson and Zyzae West into this conversation. Because right now,

Those four and then I don’t and then probably TC coffee that that’s your five Depending on whether or not TC’s own scholarship this year or not and whether he’ll be on scholarship next year or not because we’ll walk on it can Be interesting sometimes that’s the four though expected to be in the room next neck in the spring You’re assuming that there’s a portal guy coming if they don’t find a third and we’ll get into that conversation whether that third is going to be in the recruiting class or not, but

Let’s make a hierarchy right now just based off raw talent level. And this is a good time to do it because none of them have actually played college football. Yes, James and Sam have been through some practices. But as you just mentioned, running back is one of the positions in college football where a true freshman can come in here and start from day one and just kind of take the job.

Stephen Means (58:17.672)

If you had to have a hierarchy, one through four, most likely to least likely be Ohio State starting running back in 2025 and beyond based on just those four and what you know of them as recruits and as talent, what would you put the order as?

Andrew (58:33.102)

Peoples, Jackson, West, Williams -Dixon.

Stephen Means (58:40.456)

And is that a running back room where it’s not going to be the best in the country, obviously, but do you think it’s at least in the upper half of the Big 10?

Andrew (58:49.102)

That’s a tough question to answer. I think just by the talent, you would say yes. Just by the talent that you have in the room, you would say yes. I mean, that would be two top 100 running backs. You know, you have Isaiah West as the third running back, who I know Ohio State’s very high on. You know, people in that building. I think if you were to say, hey, Isaiah West is the, you know, 500 plus ranked player in the country. He’s a three -star player. I think that there are people in that building who would laugh you out of the room. So I know that they are very high on Isaiah West.

Stephen Means (59:19.144)

And then hold up, they’ll laugh you out of the room and then go get you and bring you back in the room and sit you down and show you why he’s not the number 500.

Andrew (59:19.214)

That’s all.

Andrew (59:24.846)

Yeah, and then when they’re done, they’ll laugh you out in the room a second time. So yeah, they really do like Isaiah West there. You know, one of the things that we got told, I think, Stephen, was that the pass catching ability from Isaiah West is really kind of what makes him a little bit unique. And they really kind of liked his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield. So that’s what I would say out of that. It is hard to know. And again, I think we’re going to have to learn a lot.

Stephen Means (59:28.808)

Yeah.

Andrew (59:52.302)

And I think you might have to learn it a lot at the beginning of the season and then at the end of the season where you can kind of see a progression, right? You know, how does James people or James people’s look against Akron in August? And how does James people’s look when you’re beating the snot out of Indiana in November? And I think that that matters a lot because we’ve already talked about getting these running backs some breathing room and kind of getting them off their feet a little bit. Well, James people’s got to prove that that man can play some football and

If he can do that, then I think you’re feeling way better going into 2025 about the running back room. So, you know, moving forward, you feel good about the room because Carlos Loughlin has come in. I think it’s it’s a lot easier of a question to talk about recruiting than it is development at this point, because frankly, we just don’t have sample size for that. And I’m not trying to diss anybody. We just don’t have sample size for that. He hasn’t developed at Ohio State yet. Not saying he can’t do it or he won’t do it. I just I would like to see it.

I don’t think that that’s an unreasonable question. So we got to see the development happen at Ohio State. We’ve got to see that happen. I think with James Peebles, I think is a great kind of case study for that. But the recruiting, you feel good about. The recruiting, you look at and say, OK, the talent can be there. And if James Peebles and Bo Jackson are your number one two punch next year, which I don’t know if that will be, but if that is,

I think you’re feeling solid about it at the very least.

Stephen Means (01:01:25.256)

So if Ohio State’s gonna add a third running back in its 2025 class, is there a most likely candidate that exists right now as it heads into fall camp in a couple of weeks?

Andrew (01:01:38.51)

Yeah, the guy that is an interesting candidate is Anthony Rogers. And this is going to be a tough kind of sell here. So Rogers is currently an Alabama commit.

He is someone that is from Alabama and Ohio State has been trying to get him to back off of that commitment and they’ve been trying to flip him. One of the things I do respect about Carlos Loughlin is that Carlos Loughlin very clearly in our conversations with him, in the media’s conversations with him, I think you get the sense this man is not backing down for anybody.

This man is not going to kiss the ring for anybody. He’s not going to say, well, there’s a kid out of Montgomery, Alabama. He’s committed to Alabama. He’s been committed for over a year. Let’s not even bother. No, that’s not the way that Ohio State and Carlos Lockman are approaching this situation. So they’re going after him. So the Rogers thing is interesting that that’s something we’re going to want to monitor just to kind of see how things play out over the next couple of months.

if there’s an OV in the fall or something like that. There’s another running back, Shaquille Mills Knight. He goes to Baylor School. I believe that’s where Titan Max LeBlanc went, but it’s out of Chattanooga, Tennessee. He’s the number 443 overall player. He’s currently uncommitted and Ohio State has been kind of on his radar. They have kind of been keeping an eye on him and I think it’s pretty clear that if...

Rogers is not going to come to Ohio State. If Rogers is going to stay with Alabama, then I think you go to Mills Night. So those are the two. And I do kind of wonder if, you know, you’re not able to get Rogers off of his commitment and, you know, Mills Night, who he did take a lot of other visits. You know, he took a visit to Michigan in early June, then Alabama, then Auburn, then Tennessee, then Ole Miss. You know, there’s a guy from Tennessee who might just be comfortable staying down south and maybe he, you know,

Andrew (01:03:53.102)

maybe that’s where he’s at. And, you know, maybe Ohio State, you know, being involved in the Jordan Davison game is going to cost them a little bit, you know, because you weren’t able to get in maybe as early as you could have on, on some of these running backs. But you wonder if like, you don’t get those two guys, if it’s just, they’re going to give up on three in the class and go for the portal. I don’t know. But those would be the two guys right now that are on Ohio State’s board that you look at in the running back room and go, it’s

If it’s gonna be somebody, it’s gonna be one of these two guys.

Stephen Means (01:04:27.656)

So let’s wrap up with this part of the conversation then. And that’s the Carlos Loughlin part of this of a guy who is very quickly gonna go from having probably the best handum in college football to, okay, how quickly can you develop these guys, right? How quickly can you recruit your room? He went two for three, right, this summer in terms of who the clear top three targets were with Bo Jackson and Isaiah West committing.

And then obviously top 100 recruit Jordan Davidson ends up committing to Oregon, which it’s interesting watching Ohio State and Oregon. The Big 10, man, the Big 10 to the new world recruiting, man. Ohio State’s got a genuine competitor.

to go up against on the recruiting trail in his own conference now. And it hasn’t, I don’t think it’s ever had that. So it’s gonna be a fun thing to watch every single year. He ends up at Oregon, so you go two for three in that situation, which is why they’re still in the conversation of trying to figure out whether or not it’s gonna be a third recruit or maybe they go on a portal with a portal guy this winter. And maybe it’s both, who knows? Who knows how the roster shakes out every single year.

What did this first trail, what did this first cycle teach you, Andrew, as a guy who covers recruiting for us, about Ohio State’s ability to recruit running backs going forward, where the pass has shown us under Tony Offred, he would hit a home run with J .K. Dobbins and then, right, he hits a home run with Trevion Henderson and then it’s about to, right.

I don’t know if I would call this a home run, but I think I would call it a quality start to the Carlos Loughlin era. But, I don’t know, just early impressions on what running back recruiting under Carlos Loughlin is going to look like and whether or not it can be, it’ll be better, the same or worse than what it was under Tony Offred for the last decade basically.

Andrew (01:06:21.518)

Aggressive, that’s the word. It’s gonna be aggressive and I got that sense within

three minutes of his opening press conference when he showed up. Like I said, this guy’s not gonna bend the knee to anybody, right? Like this guy’s not gonna say, we have our top 100 running back and let’s just kind of figure it out. I know that Carlos Loughlin is going to turn over every rock possible and go get whatever running backs he can, right? Just think about this. Ohio State really wasn’t super...

connected with Bo Jackson before Lachlan shows up. Bo Jackson’s now their normal one running back in this class. They were not even remotely connected to Isaiah West, and now Isaiah West is in this class. The Davison stuff is weird, and that commitment is kind of a unique one. Yeah, and so Davison’s not in your class, but...

Stephen Means (01:07:21.128)

Recruiting is recruiting.

Andrew (01:07:27.054)

Carlos Loughlin went after those two guys and got them in the class and he’s now going after Anthony Rogers, the Alabama commit. And I think you are seeing a coach and I think you are seeing a recruiter that is going to go out to wherever he can and find these running backs. And I don’t think you’re going to get a conservative approach with him. I really don’t. I don’t think that...

And I know that might sound self -explanatory, but I don’t think you’re going to get a Tony Alford situation where it’s a home run and then, like you said, a bunch of, you know, it’s a home run and then, you know, it may be some singles even. You know, I don’t think, I think this guy is going to swing for the fence every time. And I think that that’s just going to be the way of the room for Ohio State moving forward. You know, what do you say? I’m not a recruiter, I’m a developer.

And I understand that, but you also need to recruit. I mean, Steven, you and I can go play running back for Carlos Loughlin and he’s not going to turn us into much more than what we are because that’s our physical limitations. So you got to have, you know, you got to go get some players that can play and then develop them. So I think that that’s probably the thing that I have kind of taken away from these last couple of months is that Ohio State’s running back room.

Stephen Means (01:08:34.92)

Hey!

Andrew (01:08:51.598)

At the very least, it’s not going to be boring. At the very least, following running back recruiting is not going to be something that’s ho -hum for the next couple of months, right? Like this is going to be a very, very intense, a very, very unique kind of room to monitor over these next couple of years or however long Carlos Loughlin’s at Ohio State.

Stephen Means (01:09:13.736)

interested to see what that’s gonna look like and I think part of the reason Tony Offridge was home run home run home run was because the board wasn’t always as expansive as maybe it needed to be right I think everybody has their own approach to how they recruit and I think with Tony offered sometimes it was you lock in on the guy you like

and you take it to the wire and if you get him, you get him, and if you don’t, you don’t. And so when it worked, it’s Trevion Henderson, it’s J .K. Dobbins. When it doesn’t work, it’s B. John Robinson playing at Texas when you thought he was coming to Ohio State. And so I think, does Carlos Loughlin widen the net? And aggressiveness is fine, but aggressiveness that isn’t putting all your eggs in one basket, I think is the world that...

Ohio State needs to live in from a recruiting standpoint when you’re talking about running backs which leads me back to the point I was making the beginning of having two batmans I think how do you build depth in a room? How do you have a room where there’s multiple guys in it that you think are NFL players and not just maybe the number one guy?

You widen the net on the recruiting trail and you bring in more than just one guy. You don’t just lock in on your favorite guy and maybe you get him, maybe you don’t. And if that’s gonna be the approach, if you’re gonna widen the net, if there’s gonna be Bo Jackson and you’re trying, if you’re trying to get Bo Jackson and Jordan Davidson at the same time, right? If you’re trying to get whatever the 26 and the 27 board looks like, if you’re trying to get multiple of those guys, if you’re trying to have more classes that look like the 2021 class where you brought in Trevion Henderson as a five star and you brought in

Evan Pryor as a top 100 recruit. If there’s more classes like that, then you’re giving yourself a better chance at having a better overall running back room where yes, the ceiling is high, but also the floor is raised a little bit from where it’s been the last couple of years here. And I think that’s my biggest question. I think, Andrew, the way you’re talking, you have some confidence that Ohio State’s headed in that direction with Carlos Loughlin leading that room now, but that’s the one thing I’m gonna be keeping an eye on is how many guys are you?

Stephen Means (01:11:12.776)

trying to go after on a year to year basis, or does it feel like you’ve locked in on a guy and so now you’re in a situation where you better get him, because if not, you’re gonna be scrambling at the end to try to flip my and Williams’ to my Iowa State. And it worked that time, but it doesn’t work every time. But that’s our running back conversation. Get the text 614 -350 -3315. It’s not quite as long as the quarterback one, but they’re all gonna be an hour and 90 minutes.

It’s just that’s that’s just what Buckeye Talk is man We go a long time with some of these get the tax 614 350 3315 we’re two weeks away from Big Ten media days We’re three weeks away from fall camp starting and we’re about a month and a half away from the season starting as Ohio State goes into a pivotal year We’ve tackled quarterbacks and we talk tackled running back so far as you’re listening to this on Tuesday We’re recording the wide receiver one where I think that one’s just I don’t We’re gonna try to not just turn it into a praise fest but it probably is it’s gonna turn into a praise fest because

that’s the prime top -tier position at Ohio State during the Ryan Day era and so we have to acknowledge that just like we have to acknowledge when things aren’t so well with wide receiver that is the case and we’ll get more into that on the Wednesday pod. In the meantime, that was Andrew Gillis and I’m Stephen Means and that’s Buckride Talk.

If you or a loved one has questions and needs to talk to a professional about gambling, call the Ohio Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800-589-9966 or the National Council on Program Gambling Helpline (NCPG) at 1-800-522-4700 or visit 1800gambler.net for more information. 21+ and present in Ohio. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-Gambler.